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Post by darkharbinger on Jan 20, 2021 4:05:17 GMT
I don't know why I never noticed this before, but I just rewatched the original Pet Sematary tonight and I paused to wonder who sent Victor? I daresay not everyone who took the long walk to the MicMac burial ground was warned away by a ghost, so why was this time special? Now personally, I don't think there was really such a mystery. Pet Sematary was written before Stephen had the flair for trying new and weird plots. I think a part of him questioned how the dead worked in this story (given that we don't see many and the two we do are a cat and little kid) and decided it needed an expository ghost, so we get the modern version of Jacob Marley. I believe this because once the story gets going you don't see much of Victor in the novel (not counting the movies on that one).
But let's pretend there is a mystery. What force allowed Victor to come back. He was bound by rules, so obviously he was answering to someone, but who did he answer to? And why did the powers that be decide to interfere this time? Was it because of the kill count that was coming as the result of the return of Church? I'm sure there were others before, so what made this time different? Did Victor have the shine? Did Louis? It's obvious Ellie did to some degree, but that seems a bit of a weak answer. So does saying maybe it was the will of Gan, I mean if so then why now? Surely the impersonal force behind the burial ground had encountered the shine before and if Gan allowed Victor to go back then why hadn't it been done before? I suppose you could even say there was another impersonal force somewhere that served as a balance against the MicMac burial ground that allowed Victor to warn Louis, but once again why now? From what I gathered the power of the site usually ran rather unopposed.
The problem is that for all of Victor's interference, nothing he does changes the story. He could have been written out and nothing would change. If Victor was a free agent then it might make sense, but if so then who told him he couldn't interfere past a point? What was so important about Louis's family that needed to be saved? No one prevented the Baterman tragedy. No one tried to shy Lester Morgan and his bull away, so what was the big deal? Was it important that someone be saved? Ellie, maybe? If so then I guess he was successful, but I don't think that was it either. Ellie was safe in Chicago and yet Pascow managed to get Rachel to head back to Maine.
Personally, I think Victor was just a plot device that Stephen didn't have the heart to remove. He was a Tom Bombidil, in other words.
Thoughts?
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Post by wolf on Jan 20, 2021 19:21:26 GMT
I don't know why I never noticed this before, but I just rewatched the original Pet Sematary tonight and I paused to wonder who sent Victor? I daresay not everyone who took the long walk to the MicMac burial ground was warned away by a ghost, so why was this time special? Now personally, I don't think there was really such a mystery. Pet Sematary was written before Stephen had the flair for trying new and weird plots. I think a part of him questioned how the dead worked in this story (given that we don't see many and the two we do are a cat and little kid) and decided it needed an expository ghost, so we get the modern version of Jacob Marley. I believe this because once the story gets going you don't see much of Victor in the novel (not counting the movies on that one). But let's pretend there is a mystery. What force allowed Victor to come back. He was bound by rules, so obviously he was answering to someone, but who did he answer to? And why did the powers that be decide to interfere this time? Was it because of the kill count that was coming as the result of the return of Church? I'm sure there were others before, so what made this time different? Did Victor have the shine? Did Louis? It's obvious Ellie did to some degree, but that seems a bit of a weak answer. So does saying maybe it was the will of Gan, I mean if so then why now? Surely the impersonal force behind the burial ground had encountered the shine before and if Gan allowed Victor to go back then why hadn't it been done before? I suppose you could even say there was another impersonal force somewhere that served as a balance against the MicMac burial ground that allowed Victor to warn Louis, but once again why now? From what I gathered the power of the site usually ran rather unopposed. The problem is that for all of Victor's interference, nothing he does changes the story. He could have been written out and nothing would change. If Victor was a free agent then it might make sense, but if so then who told him he couldn't interfere past a point? What was so important about Louis's family that needed to be saved? No one prevented the Baterman tragedy. No one tried to shy Lester Morgan and his bull away, so what was the big deal? Was it important that someone be saved? Ellie, maybe? If so then I guess he was successful, but I don't think that was it either. Ellie was safe in Chicago and yet Pascow managed to get Rachel to head back to Maine. Personally, I think Victor was just a plot device that Stephen didn't have the heart to remove. He was a Tom Bombidil, in other words. Thoughts?
....got some thoughts on all of this.
Will post some when I have time and feel up to it, buddy. 🙂 |
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Post by darkharbinger on Jan 20, 2021 23:16:08 GMT
I look forward to reading it.
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Post by wolf on Jan 22, 2021 19:07:39 GMT
I don't know why I never noticed this before, but I just rewatched the original Pet Sematary tonight and I paused to wonder who sent Victor? I daresay not everyone who took the long walk to the MicMac burial ground was warned away by a ghost, so why was this time special? Now personally, I don't think there was really such a mystery. Pet Sematary was written before Stephen had the flair for trying new and weird plots. I think a part of him questioned how the dead worked in this story (given that we don't see many and the two we do are a cat and little kid) and decided it needed an expository ghost, so we get the modern version of Jacob Marley. I believe this because once the story gets going you don't see much of Victor in the novel (not counting the movies on that one). But let's pretend there is a mystery. What force allowed Victor to come back. He was bound by rules, so obviously he was answering to someone, but who did he answer to? And why did the powers that be decide to interfere this time? Was it because of the kill count that was coming as the result of the return of Church? I'm sure there were others before, so what made this time different? Did Victor have the shine? Did Louis? It's obvious Ellie did to some degree, but that seems a bit of a weak answer. So does saying maybe it was the will of Gan, I mean if so then why now? Surely the impersonal force behind the burial ground had encountered the shine before and if Gan allowed Victor to go back then why hadn't it been done before? I suppose you could even say there was another impersonal force somewhere that served as a balance against the MicMac burial ground that allowed Victor to warn Louis, but once again why now? From what I gathered the power of the site usually ran rather unopposed. The problem is that for all of Victor's interference, nothing he does changes the story. He could have been written out and nothing would change. If Victor was a free agent then it might make sense, but if so then who told him he couldn't interfere past a point? What was so important about Louis's family that needed to be saved? No one prevented the Baterman tragedy. No one tried to shy Lester Morgan and his bull away, so what was the big deal? Was it important that someone be saved? Ellie, maybe? If so then I guess he was successful, but I don't think that was it either. Ellie was safe in Chicago and yet Pascow managed to get Rachel to head back to Maine. Personally, I think Victor was just a plot device that Stephen didn't have the heart to remove. He was a Tom Bombidil, in other words. Thoughts?
One way I think about it is...
Pascow was basically a good soul, and at the time of his death, he and Louis were close together, Louis tried his best to save him. On entering the spirit realms Pascow would possibly be privy to and aware of things and event's past present and future the living are not. He could have seen glimpses of what was coming to Louis and his family, and he might have wanted to hang around as long as he could to help him/them as much as he could. There are always the benevolent 'things'/spirits...etc....hanging around as much as the malevolent 'things.
And as far he not being able to 'interfere past a point'?
Well, that's all about the 'Prime Directive' you know. 😊😉
Hmmm....the supernatural 'helpers' (and their polar opposites) can only do so much to help things along (or not) and can't be mucking about with things like 'Man's Free Will'.
The Creeds were not bad people....and I think to they deserved to have some help. But had to be left to decide for them selves what to do and not do. We saw what Louis (and Jud) eventually ended up doing after succumbing to the temptations of the burial ground.
Now another thing I have considered about Pascow is this : His terribly traumatic death. (which in the recent remake was excellently done, highly graphic from what I recall. Need to see that one again.)
If Pascow was such a good person/soul why was he subjected to such a terrible and painful way of dying and passing on?
Maybe....it could have been a way for him to make up for something. Maybe he had some business to finish before he could move on. Maybe he was basically good, but he needed to do some good to make up for something bad he did, when he was living, in order to move on.....and Louis being a good man who was right there and tried so hard to help him, was the mission he chose to accept.
That's just a couple of different ways I look at it.
Lol, you know me and my strange imagination JB. 😊😉
I'll read your post some more, over again, and think about it some more. 😊  |
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Post by darkharbinger on Jan 23, 2021 2:18:58 GMT
I could see that he was making up for something. But what bothered me was that whole "the barrier was not meant to be broken" line. His very presence meant the barrier had been broken. Also, the MimMac Burial ground had been used many times before.
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Post by wolf on Jan 23, 2021 3:35:38 GMT
I could see that he was making up for something. But what bothered me was that whole "the barrier was not meant to be broken" line. ----I took that as if he was referring to the burial ground.
His very presence meant the barrier had been broken. ----- there's all kinds of barriers between the realms/dimensions, some are more permeable and easier to get through than others. With good reason.
Also, the MimMac Burial ground had been used many times before. ------ THAT was a barrier that should never have been crossed and was never meant to be crossed.....but then we might, here, come back to the 'free will' and having 'choices between doing good or bad' aspect.
On Lester Morgan and Baterman : Perhaps they didn't deserve intercession, or maybe they chose to ignore some signs of 'something' trying to warn or help them. Possibly they had the encouragement and help of 'something' that was not benevolent.
One difference between the Creed's and the others who had used the burial ground was that the Creed's were not locals. The others were.....and at least a few of those locals KNEW, SAW (first hand) the dire results of doing what should have been taboo.
Lol, you got my mind racing JB.😄
I'm hanging it up for tonight.
See you later buddy. 🙂 |
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Post by darkharbinger on Jan 23, 2021 18:00:57 GMT
Good call on them not being locals, I hadn't thought of that. Even Jud might have warranted intercession at times but her never got it.
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Post by wolf on Jan 23, 2021 18:10:14 GMT
Good call on them not being locals, I hadn't thought of that. Even Jud might have warranted intercession at times but her never got it. |
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Post by wolf on Jan 23, 2021 18:23:13 GMT
I could see that he was making up for something. But what bothered me was that whole "the barrier was not meant to be broken" line. His very presence meant the barrier had been broken. -------- Let's think about this for a moment....Maybe Pascow didn't 'break any barrier' because he had not gotten to the 'other side' completely, just yet. And also, there is a HUGE difference between the kind of spirit/ghost/entity Pascow was compared the vile things that came up out of the burial ground to inhabit the buried like Baterman. Also, the MimMac Burial ground had been used many times before. |
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Post by darkharbinger on Jan 24, 2021 0:24:14 GMT
So do I. Don't get me wrong, I love the character and the version in the movie is one of the best parts. The whole thing just feels off putting.
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Post by wolf on Jan 24, 2021 1:10:35 GMT
So do I. Don't get me wrong, I love the character and the version in the movie is one of the best parts. The whole thing just feels off putting.
I need to watch one of the movies again,
and get around to getting another copy of the book for a reread.
...another thing I thought about was that (from what I recall) that scene when Louis is trying to save Pascow, happened VERY early in the story. And it started all the creepy suspense and horror in a really shocking way. It was Louis' very first hour on the new job, after the family had just moved in and all. Heck of a foreboding jolt for Louis, I think. |
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Post by wolf on Jan 24, 2021 17:56:08 GMT
So do I. Don't get me wrong, I love the character and the version in the movie is one of the best parts. The whole thing just feels off putting.
I need to watch one of the movies again,
and get around to getting another copy of the book for a reread.
...another thing I thought about was that (from what I recall) that scene when Louis is trying to save Pascow, happened VERY early in the story. And it started all the creepy suspense and horror in a really shocking way. It was Louis' very first hour on the new job, after the family had just moved in and all. Heck of a foreboding jolt for Louis, I think.
Saw in that one, Pascow showed up on Louis' second day on the job.
Can't remember how it went in the book and the 1st movie!
Lol, kinda driving me crazy now, I want to read the book again! smilie_wut_086 😆😄 |
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Post by darkharbinger on Jan 24, 2021 18:11:24 GMT
In the book it was his first day on the job. The Med room wasn't even finished being put together. Louis did everything he could to say Victor, but there wasn't much he really could do. They didn't even have the ambulance in the motor pool.
I always found the weirdest part that of what he said in the book was "Injun, bring my fish."
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Post by wolf on Jan 24, 2021 18:21:20 GMT
In the book it was his first day on the job. The Med room wasn't even finished being put together. Louis did everything he could to say Victor, but there wasn't much he really could do. They didn't even have the ambulance in the motor pool. I always found the weirdest part that of what he said in the book was "Injun, bring my fish."
....wow....didn't remember that quote.
Tells me Pascow was seeing something in his transitional state,
maybe saw something about the Native Mic Mac's and the burial ground in the past. Maybe.
Lol. Like I said, you got my wild imagination going good, bud. 😊 |
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Post by darkharbinger on Jan 24, 2021 18:21:48 GMT
I just always wondered what the exception was. Even with Jacob Marley, why did he suddenly get to help Scrooge? In my head cannon it was because Tiny Tim (or a descendant of Tiny Tim) was meant to do something important. I tried to do the same thing here, but it doesn't work. If Ellie was meant to be saved then why send Rachel back to Maine? If it was Cage...wall he dropped the ball big time.
And was there a price to be paid for suck failure? He bucked the system and messed it up in the end. There has to be a penalty for that. That is why I'd like to see a legit sequel about Ellie. Maybe Victor never got to pass on because of that and still lingers around here, only he looks worse than he did.
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Post by wolf on Jan 24, 2021 18:51:20 GMT
I just always wondered what the exception was. Even with Jacob Marley, why did he suddenly get to help Scrooge? In my head cannon it was because Tiny Tim (or a descendant of Tiny Tim) was meant to do something important. ------ That's a good idea about a Tiny Tim descendant! .....Ellie saved, because she is meant to do something great down the line, perhaps?
I tried to do the same thing here, but it doesn't work. If Ellie was meant to be saved then why send Rachel back to Maine? ------ Another last attempt to save Louis, and put an end to the ....Gage monster, like the Batterman boy had to be ended?
If it was Cage...wall he dropped the ball big time. ------ Whatever the reason was for Pascow to be there and do what he did, I think the result would be the same. I think it was a long shot for the Creed's to escape the draw of the burial ground and use it. It was really a long shot for Scrooge to be turned and saved. I think.
I remember when reading the book ( one read, long ago), being engrossed and wondering what would happen and hoping the tragedy would end with Gage.And was there a price to be paid for suck failure? He bucked the system and messed it up in the end. There has to be a penalty for that. That is why I'd like to see a legit sequel about Ellie. ------ Yep. A sequel about Ellie would be very interesting! Maybe Victor never got to pass on because of that and still lingers around here, only he looks worse than he did. ------ Lol, like Griffen Dunne in "An American Werewolf in London". 😊 |
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Post by wolf on Jan 24, 2021 19:04:53 GMT
Another thing I remembered and was thinking about the other day,
concerning Pascow and what knowledge he could have possibly had during and after his trauma and death.....
was a specific scene in the movie : "The Other" starring Heath Ledger, Mark Addy and Benno Furrman. (NOT a comedy.)
Have you ever seen that flick JB?
I have searched Youtube and cannot find any vids of movie scenes for this film, unfortunately.
There is a scene where a man s been hanged,
the hanging man in the moments right before death has soothsayer abilities.
It was a really good story, really liked that one.
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Post by darkharbinger on Jan 24, 2021 20:59:39 GMT
I've not seen that movie, I'll have to look.
I always felt that a real Sequel would be Ellie coming back as a lawyer. They talked about in the original book that the MimMac's would have the legal chance to get some of their lands back. Maybe she is one of their lawyers. This makes her go back to Maine and confront her past, the old house is never been successfully sold so she is able to get it easily enough. Nothing is left of Jud's house, but the old path is there and as a way to deal with her past she goes down it only to be confronted by the still lingering Pascow....
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Post by wolf on Jan 24, 2021 22:00:11 GMT
I've not seen that movie, I'll have to look. I always felt that a real Sequel would be Ellie coming back as a lawyer. They talked about in the original book that the MimMac's would have the legal chance to get some of their lands back. Maybe she is one of their lawyers. This makes her go back to Maine and confront her past, the old house is never been successfully sold so she is able to get it easily enough. Nothing is left of Jud's house, but the old path is there and as a way to deal with her past she goes down it only to be confronted by the still lingering Pascow....
Yeah, that's a good little storyline there!
Lol, your imagination is pretty wild too.
In a good way!🙂 |
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Post by darkharbinger on Jan 24, 2021 23:11:41 GMT
I actually started writing it once, back in my fan fiction days. I always felt Ellie deserved better. If I can find it i'll post part of it here.
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