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Post by wireman on Aug 19, 2020 12:34:50 GMT
Don't wander hither and thither, come here and discuss Young Goodman Brown by Nathaniel Hawthorne
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Post by Deleted on Aug 19, 2020 15:04:04 GMT
Lets start with the setting. It is obviously set at the end of the 17,th century. The Author mentions that Goodman Browns father took part in King Philip's war. That was an indian rising against the New Englands puritans in 1675-76. So this should be perhaps 10-20 years later. The story deals with the corruption of a young mans faith in his religion, his wife and his society. No happy ending here. it is, i think, divided in three parts. the first when we meet Goodman, a young man with no doubts in his mind. The long second phase where he meets and talks with the devil figure and witness the mass where everyone he has considered good and holy men and women are present. Is this a dream induced by the devils lies or is it a real occurrence? I think thats open to interpretation. Here the names of Goodman and his Wife, Faith, is highly symbolic. When he returns home he dont return the greeting of the minister, he draws away from his wife. The last we see of him is when hes being buried, no pillar of society, his wife indifferent to it and no stone to commemorate his good deeds. The Goodman is no good man anymore, The faith he once had is gone and with it the trust in other people. I liked it. It is a story with layers and it tells it story and ends leaving us to think of what it means. An interesting trivia thing about Hawthorne is that one of his ancestors was a judge at the Salem Witchtrials and that he changed his surname (added the w in Hawthorne) because of it. I think that indicates that he wasn't exactly a fan of the puritans.
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Post by spideyman on Aug 19, 2020 16:09:01 GMT
Excellent thoughts @kurben. Other items of symbolism might be the devils staff- symbol of the serpent in Biblical terms associated as a an evil demon. Faith's pink ribbons. a symbol of purity, innocence. When the fall away, she has fallen into the corruptibility. However, at the end she again wears the ribbons, opening the question as to whether the events were real or a dream.
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Post by Wicked Esther on Aug 19, 2020 16:12:12 GMT
I'll be honest....I had a lot of trouble understanding the language in this story and didn't know what the heck was happening sometimes.
I read some analyses afterward and that helped.
I actually think I had to read this in high school, but must not have been paying attention when we had the class discussion because I usually have a pretty good memory for short stories, but I drew a complete blank on this one.
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Post by wireman on Aug 19, 2020 16:52:36 GMT
I'll be honest....I had a lot of trouble understanding the language in this story and didn't know what the heck was happening sometimes. I read some analyses afterward and that helped. I actually think I had to read this in high school, but must not have been paying attention when we had the class discussion because I usually have a pretty good memory for short stories, but I drew a complete blank on this one. I hated reading stories like this when I was young because they seemed so hard to understand with all the hither and thither stuff.  But, I do enjoy them now and just have to go slow to comprehend the use of language that's so different than today.
I may have to give the book I hated in high school, The Scarlett Letter another go some day.
BTW, there is a kindle free collection of Nathaniel Hawthorne on Amazon called Twice Told Tales. I got it thinking Young Goodman Brown was in it but it wasn't. There are 15 or so other short stories in this collection and it's free.
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Post by spideyman on Aug 19, 2020 16:55:53 GMT
I'll be honest....I had a lot of trouble understanding the language in this story and didn't know what the heck was happening sometimes. I read some analyses afterward and that helped. I actually think I had to read this in high school, but must not have been paying attention when we had the class discussion because I usually have a pretty good memory for short stories, but I drew a complete blank on this one. I hated reading stories like this when I was young because they seemed so hard to understand with all the hither and thither stuff. But, I do enjoy them now and just have to go slow to comprehend the use of language that's so different than today.
I may have to give the book I hated in high school, The Scarlett Letter another go some day.
BTW, there is a kindle free collection of Nathaniel Hawthorne on Amazon called Twice Told Tales. I got it thinking Young Goodman Brown was in it but it wasn't. There are 15 or so other short stories in this collection and it's free.
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Post by wireman on Aug 19, 2020 17:00:39 GMT
On the question of it being a dream or not.
Unless I missed something in all the hither and thither talk , Goodman Brown actually did physically go into the woods with questionable intent. I didn't ever think that the first part of the story was a dream. Whether or not the rest was a dream, he did actually go into the woods to meet a questionable character. Does everyone else see it that way?
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Post by Wicked Esther on Aug 19, 2020 17:05:12 GMT
I'll be honest....I had a lot of trouble understanding the language in this story and didn't know what the heck was happening sometimes. I read some analyses afterward and that helped. I actually think I had to read this in high school, but must not have been paying attention when we had the class discussion because I usually have a pretty good memory for short stories, but I drew a complete blank on this one. I hated reading stories like this when I was young because they seemed so hard to understand with all the hither and thither stuff. But, I do enjoy them now and just have to go slow to comprehend the use of language that's so different than today.
I may have to give the book I hated in high school, The Scarlett Letter another go some day.
BTW, there is a kindle free collection of Nathaniel Hawthorne on Amazon called Twice Told Tales. I got it thinking Young Goodman Brown was in it but it wasn't. There are 15 or so other short stories in this collection and it's free.
Guess what--I still have my copy of The Scarlett Letter which I don't think I ever finished reading in high school! If you ever want to try re-reading it, let me know and I'll try it, too. I'm not gonna be motivated to read it on my own, but if I know someone else is reading it, that'll keep me going. I don't think I've read anything else by Hawthorne--I'll check out the collection you mentioned. Thank you.  |
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Post by spideyman on Aug 19, 2020 17:09:33 GMT
On the question of it being a dream or not.
Unless I missed something in all the hither and thither talk , Goodman Brown actually did physically go into the woods with questionable intent. I didn't ever think that the first part of the story was a dream. Whether or not the rest was a dream, he did actually go into the woods to meet a questionable character. Does everyone else see it that way?
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Post by wireman on Aug 19, 2020 17:13:53 GMT
On the question of it being a dream or not.
Unless I missed something in all the hither and thither talk , Goodman Brown actually did physically go into the woods with questionable intent. I didn't ever think that the first part of the story was a dream. Whether or not the rest was a dream, he did actually go into the woods to meet a questionable character. Does everyone else see it that way?
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Post by Wicked Esther on Aug 19, 2020 17:14:19 GMT
On the question of it being a dream or not.
Unless I missed something in all the hither and thither talk , Goodman Brown actually did physically go into the woods with questionable intent. I didn't ever think that the first part of the story was a dream. Whether or not the rest was a dream, he did actually go into the woods to meet a questionable character. Does everyone else see it that way?
Yes, he really left his wife at home and went for a walk. It's what happened in the woods that's open to interpretation, I guess. |
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Post by spideyman on Aug 19, 2020 17:23:29 GMT
Yes, he made the choice to go into the forest. That is real. Whether what happened within said forest is real or dream is the question. |
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Post by wireman on Aug 19, 2020 19:03:04 GMT
I think one theme of the story is, beware of the people who claim to be pure, they probably aren't as pure as they claim to be. A lesson that still applies today.
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Post by wireman on Aug 19, 2020 19:27:25 GMT
As I was reading, I highlighted this passage. I just thought it was a great description of a creepy walk through the woods by yourself.
He had taken a dreary road, darkened by all the gloomiest trees of the forest, which barely stood aside to let the narrow path creep through, and closed immediately behind. It was all as lonely as could be; and there is this peculiarity in such a solitude, that the traveller knows not who may be concealed by the innumerable trunks and the thick boughs overhead; so that, with lonely footsteps, he may yet be passing through an unseen multitude.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 19, 2020 20:14:30 GMT
So, even if the woods part was a dream, he was already questioning his faith, dream or no dream.
I also think we can sense some of Hawthornes views on puritans here. Behind the public face of godlyness there lies a lot of unchristian actions. We even get an example when the devil tells of Goodmans father burned indian villages to the ground. Also the fact that Goodman is willing to take this forest walk implies that there is corruptibility and evil lurking behind the surface in even the most faithful puritan. |
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Post by spideyman on Aug 19, 2020 20:33:29 GMT
I think its a bit more complicated than than. In the beginning Goodman believes in the good christian nature of the minister, the deacon, that woman who taught him and his wife. He has faith. But when the devil shows that all these people are followers of his his picture of the world collapses. He looses faith. But that is his own choice, that shows that his faith is rather weak to begin with because if he really had had faith, rock bottom solid faith, in his beliefs an experience like that, that could have been a dream, wouldn't shake it. That way Goodman is picture of his lack of true religion, it is easy to shake as well as a picture of the good and bad sides of human nature. I think it was a dream (it would be so like the picture of the devil in Hawthornes time as the trickster and master of deceit and misleading weak souls. In that interpretation Goodman is a good soul, if a bit weak, lead astray by a master trickster.
I also think we can sense some of Hawthornes views on puritans here. Behind the public face of godlyness there lies a lot of unchristian actions. We even get an example when the devil tells of Goodmans father burned indian villages to the ground. Also the fact that Goodman is willing to take this forest walk implies that there is corruptibility and evil lurking behind the surface in even the most faithful puritan. |
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Post by wireman on Aug 20, 2020 2:03:11 GMT
Next Wednesday we will discuss All You Love Will Be Carried Away by Stephen King from the book Everything's Eventual
See ya next Wednesday (or at least I'll see your typing)
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Post by cat on Aug 23, 2020 21:21:53 GMT
Just read this. I enjoyed it.
I think it does not matter whether everything that happened in the woods was real or a dream. Either way it had the same effect on Brown. He did not trust his faith any longer, did not trust what he had been taught his whole life and never truly trusted another human being for the rest of his life.
The devil, real or dreamt, got his way. He ruined everything Brown believed in and expected for his life. Faith, (both his religious faith and his wife) his expectation of living a good, simple, religious life were shattered. His place and belief in his fellow townspeople were shattered.
Evil is the nature of mankind.
That was one line I took note of and that is what Brown believed the rest of his days. His faith was replaced by this belief.
The devil won.
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But, I do enjoy them now and just have to go slow to comprehend the use of language that's so different than today.
